Religious singing in Red Square

I dont care... let them do what they want, yes it is really fucking annoying to hear it. But whatever... ill just walk passed... :D

I'm not totally sure how I feel about it. I don't mind the singing part, because it is nice to hear something positive in a world where we're constantly bombarded with negative messages. But at the same time, I feel that's it's a little like commercials, evangelism, etc. I personally don't have TV and when I watch it, I can't stand the commercials because someone is always trying to get me to buy this or that that I don't need or want, and I have no choice but to put up with it. Except I change the channel, mute it, or leave the room. Same goes with radio commericals: whatever it is, I don't want it. I want to be able to think with my own brain and not have something shoved down my throat all the time just because it's allowed in society.

At the same time, I would REALLY enjoy if some other religious groups showed up and sang something in, say, Indian (Punjabi or Urdu, etc). I think that would be fantastic. But I'm tired of always being solicited to join the Christian faith. That being said, I do, however, identify with the Christian faith, I'm just fed up with how evangelical it is in this society. That is great if you have your religion, but keep it to yourself. That's why I really like Judaism, they don't do evangelical work, and they don't care if you join their religion or not. In fact, they probably would prefer if you didn't. But that's why I like it, because they keep it to themselves and let the prospective followers decide for themselves and not have it thrown at them, like a McDonald's commercial.

Anyways, in the scheme of things, it's really not that big of a deal. But I prefer the lone guy with the guitar and Beatles songs to the Christian music, but it's still nice to hear a melody on a sunny day.

And those abortion pictures seriously made me throw up my lunch in my mouth last time I saw them. And I wouldn't have any qualms about getting rid of some abomination if I were raped by an uncle or something. But this is not the topic of this forum.

So, have fun singing, but you could add other inspirational songs that aren't necessarily Christian, but that are uplifting. I might even join in.

Ok, regardless of anyone's beliefs, including my own, I have to say I think certain people are making way too big of a deal out of this. Honestly, while the group size fluctuates constantly, there are usually only about 6 people there. They are standing in a small circle, next to a very loud fountain, in a noisy part of campus. You often can't tell what they are singing if you are just walking along in Red Square.

So, I really don't see how anyone could get soooo stressed because there is "little way to avoid them." Honestly, it's quite easy to avoid them if you wish. Plus, it takes about one minute to walk across Red Square.

With everything else that goes on at Western (and in the world), I don't think people need to get all upset over this.

Oh yes, and I'd also like to clarify, in case anyone was confused, that CCF and the INN have absolutely nothing to do with inviting the "abortion=genocide so lets bombard people with grotesque posters" group to campus. Same goes with Bible Jim. Same goes with the LaRouche people.

Would we be having the same discussion thread if someone was posting about how annoying it is when the Pagans do their ritual songs and dancing in Red Square (btw - not annoying at all).

I think I would enjoy it more if the musical compositions were more diverse/of higher quality. I deeply apologize if this sound offensive at all; but the biggest problem I have with a large portion of "Christian rock" and similar music is the same problem I have with a large portion of 90s pop-rock; it just sounds so bland and overdone to me. Southern gospel choirs got it right, I love that stuff!! Anyone here ever seen "Sister Act"? Why don't more Christian groups sing those kinds of songs?! Or what about Sufjan Stevens? Now that man can write a song praising his God. Bach, anyone? Any of the other magnificent composers of sacred music? Start singing anything by those people, and I might even join in with you. Okay, probably not, but it'll make me smile more than if I heard anything by Creed or Delirious etc.

But hey, I'm not about to ask them to stop. If they like that music, that's fine. If they want to keep playing it, that's fine. And again, it's basically just personal taste in music for me.

On a side-note, I'd be pretty ecstatic if people started playing klezmer in Red Square. :D

On aNOTHER side note, did anyone catch the members of the jazz band jamming outside the PAC today?

I was wondering if someone would bring up the...uh... mediocre quality of christian music :).  I go to church every Sunday, and at times it really is hard with the lack of creativity put into worship songs nowadays (It doesn't help that I have a nasty habit of analyzing all music I listen to though...)  Hymns and Bach are definitely the way to go.

Btw, I'm learning a Klezmer wedding piece on clarinet with a trio, you'd probably really like it, maybe we should do it in Red Square sometime.

the band groups should all go perform in red square. that would be great. and then people can dance. and everyone can be happy! (except probably not, due to what I've noticed in these forums, there is always someone who isn't happy with whatever some issue is)

and I don't mind having people singing...christian or not...it makes me smile as I walk by.

Every time I hear these songs, it brings back floods of memories of my Christian upbringing, and makes me cringe.  I get this feeling in the pit of my stomach like I want to throw something at the singers.  They just look so Middle America, standing in their cute little circle, with their nice clean white shirts, in between their Biology 101 and Intro to Anthropology classes.  Blah.  The worst part is, the songs get stuck in my head because I know every damn word.

I'm sorry for what has been done to you, to make you feel the way you do. But I know what has been done to me. Jesus has transformed my life. Its not about what makes me sleep at night, if anything he has made me feel. Feel pain for suffering, hatred aimed at me for no other reason that I believe in God, joy in life, endless compassion. So when I see those people singing, sometimes I smile as I walk by. Sometimes I might join them, but stay silent. I like to listen to them even if they are off-key. I don't know most of them, but it doesn't matter. If they seem cliqueish, I realize that often its cold outside and they need to huddle for warmth or to read the lyrics. Or maybe because its the knowledge of companionship, even if they have no idea who the person is next to them.

Anyway, I like it.

I always enjoy people putting themselves out there for a public performance, but if you are singing in public thats exactly what it is. Sing it loud and face your audience.   I am getting sick of the singsongy sort of breathy singing.  I want to hear some real church choir performance if it is going to be an every day thing. 

It is always a bit of an awkward moment as I walk past them, becuase it's like they don't want to be heard. 

It would also be cool if they had lyric sheets that they could hand out so I could join them, even thogh I am not religious. 

It's the awkwardness that everyone doesn't like, not the singing.  And it's day in day out, not just a yearly picture of a dead fetus. 

I am personally not offended by the singing in Red Square, and I really like the fact that most people in this forum have been so respectful about this topic. I find that the singing isn't even necessarily the timid or meek, sometimes there are only 3 or 4 people in the group, and although I have never joined, honestly how loud are three people going to get? But, as many have already stated, Red Square is an area of open expression, and these people are there to sing praises to the God they worship and love, not to force their religion on anyone or to offend anyone. Especially in this forum, it has been made clear that anyone is allowed to join, but if they don't want to, that is why the group meets in a circle, so that no one in Red Square feels accosted by the singing. I really respect the morning sing, the one hour a day that the people who aren't necessarily liberals have the guts to come out in public and express themselves freely. I may try one day to join the sing as a result of this forum, just to see what it has to offer. And lastly, once again, I really like the fact that this touchy subject has remained pretty civil and respectful. 

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Mortally sickened? Opinions are being expressed, what is so wrong with that?

me also! and most of the time that is indeed how people sing the beatles.

I didn't even know they were singing christian songs; I just thought they were some bad singers practicing for American Idol or something.  Knowing they are christian doesn't really change anything for  me, but like someone else said, I wish they could have a little bit more SOUL.  Seriously.  Huddled for warmth?  They look ashamed to me.  No, not even ashamed, more like GUILTY and MARTYRED.  I have no problem with people believing whatever they want, and practicing whatever they want as long as it's not hurting anyone.  But how about some JOY?  I am not religious, but I've attended a lot of different churches for various reasons, and let me tell you, there is nothing more joyful than a southern baptist church in Louisiana or Alabama.  Some of those people have very little to be thankful for, but gosh darn it if they don't sing their hearts out. 
Looking at lyrics?  Hardly.  I know the words to those songs and I haven't attended any regular service since I was ten. 
I also have to say, although I'd like to see some joy, I also have a personal problem with the witnessing and evangelical stuff.  Quiet confidence is much more attractive than being "meek." 
That being said, I would MUCH rather NOT hear the singing, whether they are singing to the lord or to the magic spaghetti noodle.  Quiet confidence.  With the emphasis on QUIET. 

A few days ago there were a couple stands up and one of them was a guy in RS with a sign that said something like "do you have questions about faith?" as some religious advocate... and after I walked past him I saw a guy in a grey spraypainted cardboard box with a sign that said "do you have questions about robots?". I thought that was pretty funny...

As to religious people in red square... it's the same as the guys who play frisbee in the middle of red square when it's crowded... or the girls who go to class like it's a modeling show... or jerks who ride their bikes at full speed through crowded walkways... or (etc etc etc). These people just want attention, so the best solution in terms of getting them to stop is not giving them the attention they seek. Basic behavioral training ftw.

It seems charcteristic of Christians that they want to love Jesus too.  They aren't content having a personal relationship to God they want YOU to do it too.  It gets annoying after awhile because Christians become very one dimensional.  They rarely talk about anything but their faith and seem to get annoyed if you express a different opinion.  They may say they don't mind but that's what Christ teaches them, to hold their tongue and not judge.  So they swallow their frustrations of the world and try to get you to love Jesus.  Why can't they love Jesus and let you worship whomever you want.  I think all Christians have a secret desire to convert their non-christian friends.  

I wouldn't be against Christians singing in public if I wasn't sure that if I sang about Satan in public they would come over and try to convert me. 

Gangsta4life: excellent posts~

I still haven't heard these cultists singing though, about what time do they do it?

children being beating, bigotry, hate mongering? wtf i read through a lot of these post and with a the exception of a few about Satan and bad singing jokes i didn't see anything that would justify such inflammatory and ill willed words that don;t reflect the attitude of the posters. perhaps your harboring a grudge i don't know but people disagreeing with where one should worship is not hateful rhetoric.

 I would like the music a lot better if it weren't religiously affiliated. It really bugs me too when I am sitting in class and have a hard time focusing because of the music outside of the window. I am paying a lot of money to come to this school to get an education. I don't stand out there proclaiming my religious beliefs by putting on a show. I wish they'd do the same. Or at least play some music that is less annoying. 

I'm really not a fan of singing, and I'm even less of a fan of christian music; be it hymns, "rock", or choirs.

But while this could be annoying, it's certainly not offensive. It's definitely more bearable than those LaRouche guys.

I'm catholic and sure it makes me feel weird when i walk by them but most people "showing off" in red square, and i mean showing off make me feel weird. Just ignore it like anything else.

i read most of the comments on here, and i think this is a really interesting topic.

i was brought up christian, and while i'm not exactly devout (a fire and brimstone scriptures teacher made me more or less dissilusioned with the whole thing) i like attending church at home alot because i get to meet people i have not seen in a while and sing some of my favorite songs. there are some pretty good ones out there, though i have to admit, ya really need to know where to look. i guess i'm saying i really like singing and don't have anything against God-rock, but i've never actually felt inclined to join the group because the songs didn't seem all that interesting, and the people don't seem all that entusiastic/welcoming.   
i sometimes feel embarassed for the group out there, i mean, i have to agree with some of the posts here, the closed circle and quiet voices make it seem a lot more secluded/clique-ish. i think it might be good for them to try opening up the circle a little and maybe get some movement in there, relax, clap, maybe some more energetic songs, just mix it up a bit...i dunno, i think i'm rambling...

i find it funny how half the posts want the singers to be quieter/go away, and the other half want them to try harder/be louder, sorta go big or go home.  
oh, that reminds me, i did want to go join ONCE, beacuse it was freezing cold and the guitarist was standing out there alone, playing, and his hands were all red and probly completely numb...that took some BALLS or something, straight up determination, I was impressed, anyhow.

oh, also! for the SINGERS themselves! because people seem to be saying "sing something better" but havn't given any good constructive crit, i have some reccomendations (requests?). I havn't actually been able to hear which songs you guys have been singing, so forgive me if these are already on your list...

Joyful, Joyful -very fun song
Down in the River to Pray -good song, easy to sing and beautiful
Hail Holy Queen -rocks my socks, whenever i hear it
City of God  -good if you put some snap into it (rythem-sticks/clapping helps, and not dragging out the notes)

there's also a really cool four-part you can do with When the Saints Come Marching In, Swing Low Sweet Chariot, Dominique, and the crawdad song...three songs about God, one song about crawfish...if you're feeling ambitious...

that was...kinda long...sorry...

I don't know why, but I keep coming back to this. It seems to me that there are only a few things that really get people stirred up religion, war, and politics, and often times those lines are pretty blurred. But, I want to say... I don't really see much of any of those three in the singing in red square. It's people singing, not trying to make war or to convert or talk politics. Obviously, there is a public aspect to it... but, it still doesn't seem like showing off to me. Go and talk to them, does it really seem like they're showing off??? --And, if one isn't at least willing to talk to someone (in person vs. on a discussion board) they probably shouldn't be making judgements about others.

So, maybe consider talking to the people themselves. What are they like? What motivates them? Why are they singing? --Then, I would ask, why does it bother you? And, after you've talked to them --then what do you think?

It's worth a shot-- you can discover a lot when you talk to someone. But, then sometimes prejudice wins out and real discussion is only a dream.

so, again, I extend the invitation to open dialogue and the free exchange of ideas. feel free to e-mail me at kuchena@wwu.edu. I'd be more than happy to talk.

I don't mind the singers, but it seems to only be one group. I've sat at the fountain and listened to them a few times, and I can appreciate it without worrying about their motivation. It'd be nice to see other groups out there, though... not just other religious groups, but any of the campus clubs. The Geology Club ("I Love Rock and Roll"), the Psychology Club ("You're So Vain")... heck, get the AS leadership out there singing their campaign pledges. I stopped to listen to Abraham Lincoln a while back, just because he was there and talking in Red Square.

If I don't like it, I wander off, or turn up my ipod. Otherwise, I think public performances are awesome - just like all of the other random art that pops up on campus (the love gun?).

I kind of like it.  I'm too self conscious myself to go out and sing with people I don't know, but it lifts my day to hear them.  They aren't that loud when i cross on the other side of red squre (apparently a good thing from people who have gotten closer, haha) and it's just pleasant. 

I like a point that someone else brought up: would we be having this discussion if it weren't Christian songs?  I've seen no threads on the poor singing quality of the random guys with a guitar singing <insert band name here>.   

People have made comments about how closed off standing in an inward facing circle is, but what would you rather see?  a choir formation?  A circle is natural.  It's how friend's gather.  Maybe their posture could be better, but often I don't even look at them, I just hear the music as I'm on my way to class. 

I don't know about you, but I wouldn't be having this conversation if it hadn't been brought up. Chances are good that if there was a druidic circle in Red Square every morning... yeah, someone would feel the need to post about it.

Well I am one of those singers, and I feel that praising my God between classes is the best way to use that time. I'm a member of CCF, and even though it took me awhlie to start participating in Morning Sing, I love being there every opprotunity I can; for me it's a way to make sure I'm constantly thinking of God throughout the day, and it is a lot of fun. Has anyone against the singing ever walked up to the circle? Because even when I've gone, without knowing anyone there, most people look up, wave, and smile at you, to me, that's pretty inviting and accepting. So don't be afraid to come by, because even if you don't know anyone, that doesn't matter, we're all out there to praise our God, and if you want too, you're more than welcome.
We're not there to show off, we're not there to push our religion on you, we just want to praise God, and we are open to talking. Several times I've walked through Red Square during Morning Sing, and almost missed it because of other noises and the fountain, so it's difficult for me to see how we're so loud and in your face, maybe listen to your iPod a little louder if you don't want to hear us?
I realize people are frustrated by this, but honestly some of these comments are pretty rude or hurtful; I get that you're intitled to your own opinion, but have you read the guidelines to the forum? It'd be appreciated if they were followed, just a thought.
For the looking down part, there's about 40 pages about 4 songs per page,  so having all 160 or even more songs memorized, that would impressive. Don't feel bad for us, we're not being awkward. We're doing something that brings us so much joy, and what's so wrong with being joyfull?

 accidentally posted twice, my bad.

Why do you need to constantly think about god, sounds pretty unproductive to me~

Because I believe that because of Him, everything is. Thinking about Him keeps my life in perspective and worshiping Him is a way for me to do that.

Just so everyone knows, the moderators ARE watching this thread pretty carefully and if we feel anything is out of hand or a blatant violation of the guidelines then we will take action. Several authors of posts in this thread have been warned.

Everyone: Please remember to follow the guidelines and ultimately just remain respectful to everyone's opinions.

So carefully that they don't notice when they double post?

Edit: Guess it's been fixed, lol

HIM~

Seriously, this always freaked me out. Why do people refer to a divine/omnipotent/omnipresent being as though it had a sex. What's with that? Like why not her, or them, or it? 

I was taught it was due to the a) historical context (at the time sexism wasn't a real term and men were the only ones in charge thus God was a man) and b) (though probably related to a) the fact that Jesus was a man, and since God, Jesus, and The Holy Spirit are all one (yet three), God is to be referred to as if he is a man, though realistically (which always sounds funny to me when I'm talking about religion), God would be, as you said, genderless.

Pete,
The reason that we refer to God as a man is because that's how he has revealed himself to us.
(Jasper, you are right in saying that God is genderless.)
I think you would agree that men and women portray emotions, actions etc. in drastically different ways.
So, for whatever reason he has, God decided to portray himself as a man.

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It's a respect thing, for crying out loud. So you don't believe in a god, we get it. I'm pretty sure you're just being a smart alec, but just in case and for anyone else who may not totally understand, Christians capitalize the 'h' in "Him" and "He" because it's a form of reverence to the being they worship [correct me if I'm wrong there]. If you want to capitalize the 'i' in "It" when you refer to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, go right ahead, but seriously, let it be.

This god character, did it errr him I mean Him actually reaveal itself/himself to YOU~

lol ass.

No, but seriously, regardless of whether or not God/god/gawd exists, Pete's question was more hypothetical: IF God exists, why is he referred to as "Him" instead of "her" or "God."

I lol'd.

heh heh
The gender question was mine, I just didn't phrase it as one, figured it would stir up more controversy, guilty on that one~

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=) I was thinking the same thing. Typically when men go around "revealing themselves" the police get phone calls.

Seriously though, what does "reveal himself" mean? Like, is god speaking to you right now? Does he come over for twister? Or do you just mean the stories from the bible? Because the bible has been translated over and over again (and over and over and over again)...  have you ever played telephone? Do you really think that the books you're reading have the same meaning as the original word of god? I mean, don't you think you might be a little misinformed (considering all those translators were OLD, and extremely sexist by today's standards, MEN)?

I'm not trying to be a dick here, but these questions puzzle me and weaken my urges to join a church. So much of christianity's greatness is washed out by all these seemingly silly absurdities that surround popular christian beliefs. 

Also, if god has a sex, does he have sex? I suppose he has at least once, because of Mary right? Was that it? Is he planning to disrupt any marriages in the near future? Does he also have a race? Is god white? Why is Jesus always portrayed as a white anglo-saxon looking dude. Shouldn't his skin be darker, and his hair a little curly at least???

I actually don't agree with this at all. In fact, I find it highly presumptuous and slightly offensive. 

I believe that Individuals express themselves differently. Men and Women are individuals, but that does not mean that men express themselves differently then women exclusively. There are some distinct biological differences, but as far as I can tell after that it's anybody's (society's) game (psychological constructs).

To the moderator who is standing outside my window:

was this really necessary?  Seriously, "the moderators are watching". How wrong is this! What are you, like a prison guard??? Are you gonna call the warden if we act up and insult a christian? I for one am sick of moderators chiming in on every single thread. Go away. Let people take care of themselves. 

sorry, it's nothing personal. I am sure you are a great person, but just let us speak. theological threads don't deserve to be coddled and protected any more then any other thread. It is insulting to every one on here to act like you have to protect us from each other. 

I don't think the mods make their presence known enough, so stop your bitching and let them do what they are here to do, because they really need to exercise some backbone.

This thread is far from balanced and open minded anyway and in my opinion, has severely strayed from the original post.

TO THE MODS:
The thread names usually mean that discussion on said name is being made. If people want to have a discussion on whether or not god is a man or a woman or a dude that walks around campus without any shoes on and wears a pretty silly wool sweater then perhaps a new topic of conversation is due.

However, if my short term memory hasn't failed me from when I clicked this link about a minute ago before clicking reply, I believe the topic name is:

Religious singing in Red Square

ITT: We now talk about what is a moderator

Since we've already strayed from the original topic anyway, how about now we talk about what a moderator is.

First I copied the definition of a moderator from dictionary.com, then I laughed to myself and found the definition that applies here.

From UrbanDictionary
2. moderator

(n.)Someone who moderates a chatroom or message board. There are generally five types of moderators:

3. Do-Nothing Moderator: Moderator that acts more like a member than a moderator, only intervening in serious matters that require mod attention. Usually ignores rule infractions for fear of angering the administrator or stricter moderators. Usually friendly.

Are there any other stricter moderators? HA, there are no mods, period. Perhaps administration? I doubt it.

The people obviously can't 'take care of themselves' otherwise there would be no point in you people being here (however, its not like any mods exist)

This is kind of like a kid's show where the focus is on the kid and the parents are going out and leaving a babysitter in charge. However, the kid believes they are old enough to take care of themselves and bitches and moans until one day they are given a chance to prove themselves. Then the kid is shocked when they fuck it all up and realize that they actually need the babysitter because they aren't ready to handle the responsibility of taking care of themselves quite yet.

Need another visual abstraction? Since I'm purposely going into the realm of TL;DR, I'm going to bold my point so if anything gets taken away from this post, this will be it.

The users are sheep and you are the herder. Threads can be seen as a kind of fenced area (trying to create an illusion, work with me here). Sometimes one of the many wild animals can knock the fence open and all the sheep get out. You could sit back and allow the sheep to roam, but then why were they fenced in in the first place? Or you can lead them back where they belong.