Online Classes via Blackboard: Fantasy or Farce?

I have taken a lot of classes online, at WWU and through other universities, and they are all basically the same.  Some schools even contract out the "professors" for the courses.  I took a class once while I was in Alaska for the summer, from a school in Arizona, and the "professor" was a teacher in Los Angeles (credentials?). 
If you are motivated and can keep yourself on task, online courses are an excellent way to do other stuff while you're getting credit.  I wouldn't recommend taking a class for your major online; GURs are best. 
So, yes, they are a bit of a farce, but like any class, you get out of it what you put into it.  If one is a lazy ass (and I don't mean YOU, personally), you'll probably have a hard time because no one is rapping you on your knuckles to get stuff done. 

I am running over deadlines... but generally I think I have been able to stay on task. I just don't feel like I am getting as much out of it as I would in a "real classroom" course. That being said I am getting a lot out of the reading, and the assignments are productive... my big problem is I feel like the interaction between me, the professor, and the rest of the class is severely limited. I just don't think that the technology is ready for the idea. 

The technology is neutral; how it's used is the key to students feeling engaged in an online class. I've taken several, both undergrad and grad (none at WWU, though).

A couple of the undergrad classes were excellent, because there was a lot of interaction between students in discussions, the assignments were meaningful, and the instructors were frequently engaged in a dialogue with students (and in one case, gave lectures via video embedded within BlackBoard to start out each week's instruction). A couple of the grad classes were excellent for the same reasons (and in one case, because the organization/usability design of the course was outstanding). OTOH there were a few (both undergrad and grad) that were poorly organized, with make-work assignments, disengaged instructors, and really bad interfaces.

So in my experience as a student, it all depends on the individual class design, the instructor, and the resources that go into course development.

Is that even at best, they are limited in terms of interaction with classmates and instructor, and in a way that is potentially disastrous to someone who really thrives in an environment where quick, auditory, Q and A sessions are needed to reinforce th material. 

Is there anyone out there that prefers online courses over on-ground courses as a rule? (I am hoping to here more then scheduling issues). 

Hi Pete,

"even at best, they are limited in terms of interaction with classmates and instructor"

That's fair. Limitations on bandwidth, in particular, have led to some standards in online education that mean most of it is asynchronous and doesn't use live video/audio effectively. I think that's changing, but changing far more slowly than the technology allows for.

I wouldn't say that I prefer online courses as a rule, but when I think back, particularly to my grad classes, the level of discourse was generally much higher online, maybe because writing something for others to read requires a certain amount of organized thought and attention, while a student in an in-person class can sit silently in class, or daydream, and still be "there".

Jennifer

"the level of discourse was generally much higher online, maybe because writing something for others to read requires a certain amount of organized thought and attention, while a student in an in-person class can sit silently in class, or daydream, and still be "there"

In theory, it should work like this. I've taken a few online classes at community college before, and it didn't quite work out that perfectly. I don't know if it was because it was community college or if it is like this at every college, but most of the students used discussion board as if it was some sort of online chat area. Spelling, grammar, punctuation, and capital letters were not important to many. The biggest problem by far was people getting into arguments. I was a T.A. at Skagit Valley College for a quarter for an online European history class. I know it sounds weird, but I monitored the discussion board (they also use blackboard) and helped create assignments and quizzes. Anyway, it seemed to be my observation that people were either more aggressive with other students (since they couldn't see the person face to face) or they tried to avoid conflict. There was not much middle ground and there were two occasions when the discussion got out of hand either I or the instructor had to step in and lay down the rules. I do commend the greater ability of free though allowed by online classes, but of course this has its downsides as well. Many questions and assignments which should have created much discussion and critical thinking ended up being responded to in two or three sentences. I am not knocking the students who actually care and do online class, but I do have a problem when people take advantage of them just to get by easier. What you have to ask yourself, is if online classes are worth the same amount of money you pay to sit in class. Do you personally get the same knowledge and experience out of it, or even more perhaps?

I know I sound like I have already sort of made up my mind, but I am interested in talking about this. Primarily due to the recent shift in focus and availability of online classes, especially at junior colleges where I would eventually like to teach. 

So, you are right to say that bandwidth matters. But even with the highest bandwidth possible, I cannot interrupt my professor and ask him/her to clarify a point being made if his lecture is pre-recorded. Which, by the way, would never fly in an on-ground course... unless of course there was extenuating circumstances such as an illness.

Also, you are right that the opportunity for discussion is forced on those who would rather sit silently in the back row. But what if their contribution to the discussion is subpar? I really hate to insult my fellow classmates, but I am not convinced that having access to all my fellow students thoughts is important (especially if it is being forced out of them).

I think what I am really confused about, and possibly a little upset over, is the question of why. Why are we (students, admin, and faculty) buying into a system that is harder to manage in terms of the quality of the education it administers? Is convenience a good enough reason to water down our educative process? Is there something I am missing? Is this (the increase in the availability of online classes) not merely a matter of convenience?

Are there any administrators or educators out there that would like to share?? Why online? Here is a little provocation: Is it because you don't like looking your students in the eye? Are you too lazy to bike to the classroom? Is it so you can take your summer vacation and still be employed? (don't take those personally, I know they are loaded ?'s, just trying to incite some more participation in this discussion).

Students: Please, tell me your pros and cons. 

That is a good point about teacher availability. While I have good experiences with teachers getting back to me via email, I always had the impression that contacting them was only for technical problems on the blackboard site itself. I felt a little limited in that I couldn't ask meaningful questions from my teacher about the topic. It seems that if you have a question, you do have to rely on your fellow classmates quite a bit. Some people go into those classes already pretty knowledgeable, but most the time I saw more opinion be fed as answers than provable facts. Opinion is good, especially in interpreting history, but I felt some people went a little far in that direction. Who would have thought that a few conspiracy theorists are in the class?

To be honest, I feel ripped off. There are plenty of sources out there and nothing stopping me from looking through university web sites to find instructors to suggest them. (in other words I could get the same knowledge out of an online course independently) Also, there is nothing stopping me from looking up what text books are being used in individual classes. My real motivation to be in school is to work directly with competent people (educators and students). I feel like that direct interaction, which is of primary value to me, is stifled by online courses, immensely. 

I am surprised that no one has brought up environmental issues. I have often heard that online courses offer green alternatives to on ground courses... Any takers there?

Are "online classes" and "independent learning" the same thing?  It's difficult to navigate Western's webpages to find the relevant information I'd like to find when not knowing exactly what I'm looking for.  Is it a buttload more expensive, or is it the same cost?

Also, does anybody have any experience/comments on English 302 online?  Yea, nay?

EDIT:  I found what I was looking for.  And apparently they don't teach Eng 302 anymore through Independent Learning.  Poop.

Hi Pete -

Good questions. I appreciate your interest in seeking other opinions. And, for the sake of disclosure, I'll say that I support instructional technology on this campus including the Blackboard system.

My first thought is that the apparent dichotomy you present between an "online course" and a "real classroom" course is not really a fair representation. Within each of those categories is a wide variance of instructional strategies including the amount and type of student-to-teacher interaction. Many of us have experienced large, lecture-based classes where the instructor never knew our name and never provided any personalized feedback. (Yet, that method may still be excellent for certain types of topics and with the right instructor.)

Courses with a significant online component may also vary widely in the amount of student-to-teacher interaction. The course could be completely automated, or you may be taking an independent learning course where there is nothing but student-to-teacher interaction.

Plus, I feel a need to point out that much, if not most, of the use of Blackboard and other related tools are for "hybrid" instruction where some interaction takes place online and other interactions take place in person. Perhaps the very reason for moving some of the instruction online is to allow the instructor to meet individually with each student at some point during the term.

It may be that your current course doesn't include the right amount of student-teacher interaction for the topic being taught. And, I will grant you that it is possible that this interaction may be most effective in person. However, it is my experience that personal preference is a large part of this equation. While some students want to interact in real-time, face-to-face with their instructors and fellow students, others prefer to prepare their thoughts carefully and construct them in writing. One form of interacting is not inherently better than the other.

My suggestion for you is not to rule out online courses altogether, but to seek out more information about the instructional methods used in a course before you make a decision to take it. If you don't think it meets your needs, look elsewhere.

Cheers,

jf

So, also full disclosure, I work for ATUS as well. I invited John to read this thread because I thought it important to have someone closer (than me) to BlackBoard at WWU involved in the discussion and aware of the critique.

My job is to support the Integrated Laboratory Network, which uses online instruction in a very different way, a lot more synchronous in nature than the typical online class. The ILN provides students (at WWU and off-campus), who might not otherwise have the opportunity to use sophisticated scientific instruments, with Web-based connections to instruments, supported by online instructional materials as well as live two-way interactive video. (They analyze a sample remotely, watch the instrument that they're using to do the analysis via a remote-controlled camera, and interact with an instrument technician via videoconferencing.) So it's interesting, to me, to contrast that with the typical online class experiences that have left Pete and others dissatisfied.

Putting my former-student hat back on ... the University of British Columbia, where I got my MLIS, was the original developer of WebCT (which was a competitor to BlackBoard and has since been bought up by them). WebCT isn't all that great, but one thing it left behind as a legacy at UBC was very strong design and implementation support for online instruction. Basically, any instructor that needs to put together an online class at UBC can work with a whole team of people who will help them convert their in-person class to an online version that is well-designed and engaging. I hope WWU someday has the budget to have teams to do that kind of support for instructors, because it makes a tremendous difference in the quality of the end product.

That said, even with the best course design, nothing replaces the direct involvement of an instructor. I was in a very good online course in systems analysis, taught by a well known expert in the field. Problem was, he was so busy with other work and overseas contracts that he barely checked in to find out how we were doing, let alone participate in any discussions. I learned a lot, but pretty much independently, from reading the textbook and doing a real-world systems analysis project. He sort of landed back in our midst at the end of the class to give us grades. (To be fair, I had a very similar experience with an in person class at UBC. The professor who was supposedly teaching it brought in guest lecturers every week, and sometimes wasn't even there.)

Edited to add one more thought about that online class with the nearly absentee instructor: another important part of the learning process for me was peer support, which of course happened almost all online, synchronously, within our project teams (via email and Skype videoconferencing). Asynchronously as well, between teams - we critiqued each others' systems analysis projects in online discussion groups and had an opportunity to explain our thinking to others who weren't on our team.

I second that, but I have to say the ILN experience was a close second! (You guys did a really awesome job with that, it is a shame that blackboard does not utilize some of that technology).

So, I don't know if I have heard it yet, but one argument that comes up is that online courses are what some students want. This is an oddball one to me, because students have to do things in all their classes that they might opt out of if they had a choice. So the question becomes are online courses offered entirely through blackboard what students need?

Also, I will say that when my on ground courses have had an element of blackboard included it has been beneficial, and vice versa (that is to say when no online element is present it can be a hassle, handouts become very valuable). So, while I am still convinced that blackboard is limited, it can be used to enhance a face to face relationship.

Hey, thanks for that, Pete. I'm glad even an online-instruction skeptic found the ILN experience rewarding. :) I will pass that on to the rest of the ILN folks! What course were you in?

I would like to say that BlackBoard is capable of hosting (or at least linking to) everything that we do with the ILN, because even though it's in a prepackaged framework, content-wise, it's all just HTML. But the framework itself can be limiting in terms of creating a seamless experience for the students, and frankly it can be a pain in the neck to edit content. (Hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes, but I think it's a well-known complaint about BB as a development environment.)